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aperture shutter iso workaround help

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Brent Hampton
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Wenatchee, Washington
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Top aperture shutter iso workaround help

I am trying to do some photography with a camera that is not a full DSLR  and has some limitations i am trying to work around
most of it has to do with getting the right calculations for different exposures  and most calculators don't seem to have the same numbers or dont go high or low enough

for example a evening shot of the collisum and city lights  and twilight sky  with long streeking car headlights
iso 100 aperture F16 and 30 second
I can do the 100   but max out at F11 at full zoom  and can only do 8seconds on the shutter (lowest ISO is 64)

so to translate  I need to get exposure below 8 seconds  and definatly at least below F11  if not below F8 and prob set the iso to the lowest 64   oh and no filters.

I thought i would  post this here and see if  anyone had some workable Ideas besides  getting a better camera.
I will post my cameras available  settings in the next post.

thanks.

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Brent Hampton
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Wenatchee, Washington
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Top Re: aperture shutter iso workaround help

ok my camera is a fuji S1800 12mp  18x camera
it has no lens filter threads  and only an onboard flash.
it has  effectivly only 2 aperture modes  anything else is  ZOOM LOCKED
auto focus only no manual.
JPEG format only.

so 3.1 and 6.4 are the selectables with no zoom 
F8 can be had  zoomed from about 10 feet from a 6 foot target
to get F11 you must be 30 feet from the same 6 foot target (max zoom on a 6ft would push you to 90ft)
so to have manageable distances from human subjects its best for numbers below F8

aperture

F3.1      6.4
3.2      6.4
3.4      7.1
3.6      7.1
3.8      8
F4.0   F 8
4.2      8
4.4      9
4.6   F 9
4.8      10
F 5.0  F 10
5.2       10
5.3       11
5.5    F 11
5.6       11

ISO
64
100
200
400
800
1600

3200 limited to small pics
6400 limited to small pics

shutter speeds in next post.

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Brent Hampton
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Wenatchee, Washington
240 Posts

Top Re: aperture shutter iso workaround help

just to be clear  I am looking for a calculator that I can adjust to my specific camera settings  and prefered light level or  blur/freeze my camera has PSAM. so far I have also not found any flash sinc number for this camera any ideas? (my mono lights are flash triggered, i also have a photo trigger peanut so its possible to wite the master light.

IF you know the standard values for these numbers  I can translate the numbers by hand or  try to make an adjustment chart by shifting stop numbers.
I can also use sugestions for ball park settings  I can try for different common situations  like  sports  or  candle light  or  sun shilouets    and of course  studio strobe lighting situations  2 monolights (I think I remember a number of 90?)
8 second max shutter open.
7            40
6            50
5            60
4            80
3           100
2.5        125
2           160
1.5         200
1.3         250
1.0----    320
1.3         400
1.6         500
2            640
3            800
4            1000
5            1200
6            1600 only available in high apt setting
7            1/2000 only available in high apt setting
8
10
13
15
20
25
30

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Top Re: aperture shutter iso workaround help

Brent, I've read all three posts twice.  I still haven't the remotest idea what your question means.  Perhaps someone else can figure it out, but my feeling, without really understanding, is that you are trying to do things the camera is simply not designed to do.

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Curtis Wood
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Top Re: aperture shutter iso workaround help

-I have to say that I am confused also.

Non-SLR cameras are designed to take a good picture not a great one. The manufacturer intentionally pulls most of the controls from you in trade for "good" properly exposed pictures. Triggering a flash remotely using your pop flash will not help the camera figure anything out in the way of exposure since it cannot read those type flashes and put the results into its internal calculation (and you have nothing in the way of control for compensation).

-In a sentence....

- I don't think you're going to get what you want ie:control of all components of the photographic equation, without an SLR, digital or otherwise.

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Top Re: aperture shutter iso workaround help

I generally agree that an SLR is the best choice, although it's not the only choice.  I have a Canon G11 that allows me pretty much everything Brent needs, although it does have a max exposure time of 15 seconds.  With that limitation, it has the manual controls to allow everything else to be set.

That said, "different camera" remains a requirement, as near as I can tell.  The Fuji S1800 just is not designed to give you the kinds of flexibility you want.

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Brent Hampton
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Top Re: aperture shutter iso workaround help

EMERITUS:  this is the camera I have to work with  many shots its a matter of using the settings I do have or different methods to get the shot.   if I cant adjust aperture  I have to use ISO,shutter  or other methods.

well I understand that some shots will be beyond my cameras capabilities  for example  long exposure daytime shots like where I want to blur daytime traffic  without  apertures or filters  it would just be too brite 

That being said  there are still many things still within my cameras limitations if I  can compensate with the things my camera does have   for instance I have taken shots with studio lights.

my problem  is  Im looking for  consistant  ISO,APT,shutter  figures  on which  I can shift  stops up or down
like for iso  I know that  200 is 2x the light as 100  or   1 stop   ect..
But when I look for shutter and  aperture  I am unclear which ones are full stop numbers  and not partial.  and any computers  simply dont go wide enough    in my example  I didnt see one that had a 30 second delay at f16  iso100

cant I  1. lower my iso to minimum 64 (1 stop)    and  then shorten my shutter speed to compensate  for  a wider aperture?
iso 100  F16   shutter 30 sec
_________________________
iso 65  F6.4  shutter = what? (what are the stops for shutter speed?)
I know my camera will do full moon light  so I know it will do bright twilight

a computing program would be nice  but  numbers based or translated to stops would also hep   (the shutter stop numbers need to continue up to a couple of minutes worth of stops)

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Brent Hampton
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Curtus Wood: This is the camera I have to work with  unless I win the lottery or someone sponcers me and sends me a full DSLR canon or nikon  so im trying to figure what I CAN do.

My camera is actually a great camera for its class.  this is not  a point and shoot  it does have PSAM.
(though an aperture priority mode with only 2 settings is nearly useless  it does have a exposure modifier available)
It isnt built to use studio lights  but I have done it.

I figure there are some very smart and experienced photographers here.
if this is the only camera you had to work with your telling me you couldn't take amazing photographs?

MY question to you guys is:
I need to translate the DSLR settings described in books, magazines, tutorials... into settings I can (or cannot) input into my camera   primarily  by STOPS  its just that the scales especially shutter/stops  dont go very high (what is the next stop above and below 10 seconds)  for example.

look at one of your shots  and tell me how you would get the same shot using settings available in my camera F3.1 or F6.4  (or the zoom up to F11)
daytime bluring will be exceptionally hard without aperture control or filters for example (I might have to come up with some form of filter mount)

think of it like a challange or contest  your in a distant country.. your main camera(s) is/are unavailable and the fuji S1800 is what you have (give up and go home?)

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Brent, I don't mean to be hard on you, because my experience is that there are a LOT of photographers who don't understand the basics of what exposure control is all about.  The concept of f-stops baffles them.

I could give you the answers you asked for - it's trivially easy - but it's far more important that you learn the concept, and from that derive the actual data you need.

1. Changing exposure one f-stop = making a factor of two change in the exposure.  If you double it, that's a one stop change.  If you cut it in half, that's a one stop change.

2.  For continuous light sources (NOT true when using a flash), there are three ways to change exposure:
(a)  The aperture (how much light can get through the lens)
(b)  The time (how long do you let it get through the lens)
(c)  The sensitivity of the film or sensor (how much light does it need).

There are artistic reasons for how to choose among those three (getting the same exposure is not the same as getting the same picture), but disregarding those, if you make any of the three twice as large and any of the others twice as small, you get the same exposure, and have changed each one stop.

3.  The aperture is measured by the diameter, and the size of the lens opening varies as the square of the aperture.  If you make the lens opening twice as big, four times as much light can get through it.  Consequently, "one stop" difference in aperture is a change of a factor of square root of two.  (f2 > f2.8 > f4 > f5.6 are changes in one stop increments.)

4.  You can change the amount of light that gets through a lens by using a filter, which allows the aperture to be held constant while reducing exposure.  Filters generally are marked either with a transmission percentage (75% is two stops) or directly marked in factors of light reduction (a 4x ND filter cuts light by a factor of four = two stops).

Learn those, and then derive for yourself what the answers are to the questions you asked.

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Deardorff Photography
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Top Re: aperture shutter iso workaround help

Dare2 be Photography wrote:

MY question to you guys is:
I need to translate the DSLR settings described in books, magazines, tutorials... into settings I can (or cannot) input into my camera   primarily  by STOPS  its just that the scales especially shutter/stops  dont go very high (what is the next stop above and below 10 seconds)  for example.

look at one of your shots  and tell me how you would get the same shot using settings available in my camera F3.1 or F6.4  (or the zoom up to F11)
daytime bluring will be exceptionally hard without aperture control or filters for example (I might have to come up with some form of filter mount)

think of it like a challange or contest  your in a distant country.. your main camera(s) is/are unavailable and the fuji S1800 is what you have (give up and go home?)

At a constant ISO setting, increasing the F-number by a factor of 1.4 (a one "f-stop" change) requires slowing the shutter speed by one half to get the same exposure - the lens opening is half as wide one stop higher so the lens must remain open twice as long. 

Increasing the ISO number by a factor of 2 for a given F-number setting allows the exposure time to be reduced in half to get the same exposure - the chip is twice as "sensitive" to light at the higher ISO so the same amount of light for the desired exposure can be gathered in half the time.  If the shutter speed is too slow you will want to use a tripod to reduce vibration effects.

A wider aperture setting (a smaller F-number) means more of the image that is not at the focused distance (where you are focused) will be out of focus (or blurred, for lack of a better word). 

Hope this helps a little.

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Gary Knotts
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Top Re: aperture shutter iso workaround help

How do you translate DSLR settings to a camera that's not a DSLR?
I understand what you want,It just appears to your going put a lot of effort and time into something that your current camera is not designed to do. (The other posters who replied have more experience than we do,and and I believe they are correct)
If you would please,on a different subject,what do you consider to be a point and shoot?
and why you don't believe yours is, I have a Nikon E950,(old yes)which gives me great manual control of all camera functions,but its still a point and shoot, and I realised its limits,which is why I purchased a DSLR.(you don't have to win the lottery to get a decent DSLR,or even a SLR, eBay and craigslist have plenty).

Nevermind, looks like you where provided with the info you where looking for.

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Top Re: aperture shutter iso workaround help

G K Urban Photo wrote:

How do you translate DSLR settings to a camera that's not a DSLR?

It doesn't matter what kind of camera it is, the settings are the same.

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Gary Knotts
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Top Re: aperture shutter iso workaround help

I understand now.

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Curtis Wood
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Top Re: aperture shutter iso workaround help

-Here is the Fuji pages for your camera:
http://www.fujifilm.com/products/digita … index.html

The kind of control (and features) you are asking for does not exist on this camera.

I won't say you can't get exceptional pictures from this camera because it is possible. I am however saying this...
Cameras that are built to do the thinking for you take the situation/environment into consideration when you set the knob to whatever setting you choose and plug that into a predetermined equation which you have very little, if any, control over. They give you a "good" quality picture.

I too carry a point and shoot camera for some situations, but I am familiar with it and understand its limitations. I purchased the camera knowing its limitations and also because it gave me some control in the manual settings that I desired .

See my D10 review here:
http://modelinsider.com/blogs/Cool-litt … -D10-.html

I have a simple suggestion for you Brent and I think it will solve some of your issues. Why don’t you look at the purchase of a film camera that will do what you want?  There are some fabulous deals out there (Ebay, Craigs, your local University surplus etc)on all kinds of cameras that people still prize. I’ve seen some great cameras sitting in thrift shops too. Get an old Canon or Nikon  and build your skills and at the same time you can get some lenses that will follow you to the digital world at a bargain price. A lot of times you can pick up a package for pennies with the lenses that work great on their digital counter parts.

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Ed Stringbourne
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Top Re: aperture shutter iso workaround help

Try www.cambridgeincolour.com  they have DoF and exposure etc calculators.

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Brent Hampton
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I'm sorry maybe im not explaing what im after  very well. I know there are some shots that I simply will be unable to do with my camera  but these are very bright or very dark  or extreem configurations.

I understand that there are relationships exists between aperture,ISO,shutter   
I know there are multiple ways to get a similar exposure   
Im having trouble with which are full stop numbers and which are partial or fractioned stops.

but my difficulty are which aperture and shutter numbers are full stop  equivalent.
see there is F8  and that should also double to F16, F32
but there are also  F11 doubles to F22, F44? F88?  and halved to F5.6  halved again to 2.7-2.8?

is a 30 second shutter  a full stop  and what is double and half  would it really be 15 sec and  60 sec? 

8 second max shutter open.
7         
6           
5         
4         
3           
2.5       
2         
1.5         
1.3         
1.0----   

what is full stops?  2sec 4, 8? 16 32 sec?

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Deardorff Photography
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Top Re: aperture shutter iso workaround help

Full stops start at 1.0 with the next full stop equal to 1.4 times the previous stop.  Lenses for a replaceable lens camera such as a DSLR or the camera itself for point and shoot types have a minimum f-stop rating.  The full stop numbers for ANY of these are:

1.0, 1.4, 2.0, 2.8, 4, 5.6, 8, 11, 16, 22, 32, 45, 64, 90, 128

Any number between these is a fraction of the full stop settings from the list above.  The advice I gave you earlier still holds - an f stop setting of 4.5 is one full stop more open than an f stop of 3.2.  It's a geometric sequence, not a numerical sequence.  Read through this link if you need anything more.  F Stop Wikipedia

A properly exposed image is the result of the ISO setting (sensitivity to light), the f-number (aperture opening during exposure) and shutter speed (the time the lens is open) as all three determine the reaction of the chip to the amount of light received by the chip - all three are set by either manual settings or by an algorithm in the camera's processor in auto modes.  Some auto modes (Aperture Priority and Shutter Priority) let the user fix on one or the other of those two, some also have the ability to select the ISO setting, and some (DSLRs and more expensive bodies) allow setting all three.  Most point and shoots (and I am sure that includes the model you are using) only allow one of these to be set separately from what the camera's processor automatically selects.

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Brent Hampton
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Top Re: aperture shutter iso workaround help

like I said  buying another camera right now is not an option  even replacing my fuji is also not possible
so telling me to  go get something else or buy a DSLR is not helpful.

I need guidance using my camera to its maximum ability.  Ive learned alot on my own  but thought  you guys with far more experience  might have valueable input   Im not needing  basic A,I,S class.

The Fuji S1800 is  a "bridge camera"  or also called a "pro-sumer"  its in between point and shoots  and full DSLR.
I know I can do some "impossible shots" with it    for instance it is auto focus and no manual focus

the picture:  a child on the other side of a picked fence,, how do you get the camera to focus on the child and not on the fence
(its too narrow to focus between the boards).
my solution is either focus over or around the fence,  or  prefocus on an object at the same distance as the child  and recompose.  picture sucessful.

so the camera CAN do these shots  its a matter of settings within my cameras limits and workarounds.
if photographers can take amazing images with  cell phone cam's  this should be cake for you guys.

LOL imagine the types of images I will be able to do when I do finally get my hands on a full DSLR smile

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Brent Hampton
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Deardorff Photography wrote:

Full stops start at 1.0 with the next full stop equal to 1.4 times the previous stop.  Lenses for a replaceable lens camera such as a DSLR or the camera itself for point and shoot types have a minimum f-stop rating.  The full stop numbers for ANY of these are:

1.0, 1.4, 2.0, 2.8, 4, 5.6, 8, 11, 16, 22, 32, 45, 64, 90, 128

Any number between these is a fraction of the full stop settings from the list above.  The advice I gave you earlier still holds - an f stop setting of 4.5 is one full stop more open than an f stop of 3.2.  It's a geometric sequence, not a numerical sequence.  Read through this link if you need anything more.  F Stop Wikipedia

ah ok 1.4    does this also hold true for  shutter stops?
for instance..  iso 200  aperture  F8       shutter  lets say 10 seconds    IF  I want to lower or raise the exposure 1 stop using only the shutter   would that be  24 seconds?

see what im trying to do is  compensate for the lack of aperture settings  with the shutter  and to a limited extent the ISO

like for a starlight shot I set the aperture max open at F3.1  and shutter to max 8 seconds  after that all that was left was raising the ISO  to get what shot I could.  in some cases it may be possible to increase local light depending on the subject and composition.

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Brent Hampton
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Top Re: aperture shutter iso workaround help

Ed Stringbourne wrote:

Try www.cambridgeincolour.com  they have DoF and exposure etc calculators.

Thanks!  They look very interesting  I will definatly check them out!

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Deardorff Photography
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Dare2 be Photography wrote:


ah ok 1.4    does this also hold true for  shutter stops?
for instance..  iso 200  aperture  F8       shutter  lets say 10 seconds    IF  I want to lower or raise the exposure 1 stop using only the shutter   would that be  24 seconds?

If you raise it one stop (narrower opening), then the shutter must open twice as long (f8@10 sec goes to f16@20 sec).  If you lower one stop (wider opening), then the shutter speed can be open half as long (f8@10 sec goes to f4@5 sec).

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Deardorff Photography
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Dare2 be Photography wrote:

like for a starlight shot I set the aperture max open at F3.1  and shutter to max 8 seconds  after that all that was left was raising the ISO  to get what shot I could.  in some cases it may be possible to increase local light depending on the subject and composition.

If you double the ISO, you can keep the same aperture (F3.1 here) and shorten the exposure time by one half (4 seconds) - that will be easier for you than trying to change both aperture and shutter speed.

It all comes down to the combination of the three things I mentioned earlier - there are multiple correct exposures at any combination of those three within the capabilities of the equipment used.  Since you are using digital, your best approach might simply be to change one of those 3 (aperture, ISO, or shutter speed) to one setting above and one below your first estimate for it (this is called bracketing) and then see which setting gives the best result.  smile

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Brent Hampton
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Top Re: aperture shutter iso workaround help

ok let me see how this works...
an evening shot  at ISO 100  F16  and 30 seconds...

I need to drop the aperture 4 stops to F4 (actually 3.6 for my cam)
since im after blur  I start by droping ISO to 64 = 1 stop
so need 3 more from the shutter 15 , 7,  3.5.

so to get in the same ball park as my example collesium pic...
      ISO 64  F4(3.6)  and  3.5 seconds
OR  ISO 64  F6.4     and 7 seconds    both within my cameras capabilities.

the blur definatly wont be as strong as the example  but doable.

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Dare2 be Photography wrote:


I understand that there are relationships exists between aperture,ISO,shutter   
I know there are multiple ways to get a similar exposure   
Im having trouble with which are full stop numbers and which are partial or fractioned stops.

Brent, stop.  Go back and study what I wrote HERE.  You very clearly do not understand it, and you absolutely need to if you are ever going to be able to control this stuff.

There is no such thing as a "full stop number".  As a matter of simplicity and custom some numbers are commonly used and engraved on lens barrels, but that is all they are: customary, arbitrary numbers.  If we wanted, we could as easily choose to use f 2.2, f3.1, f4.4 and f6.2 as the numbers engraved on lenses - and if we did, they would serve the purpose every bit as well as the ones we have chosen.  There is nothing magic, and not very much even special, about those numbers. 

Dare2 be Photography wrote:

but my difficulty are which aperture and shutter numbers are full stop  equivalent.
see there is F8  and that should also double to F16, F32

NO!!!!

Go back once again and read what I wrote earlier.  Keep reading it until you cannot, possibly, under any circumstance, say what you just did.  Then you could not possibly fail to understand the misperception in this:


Dare2 be Photography wrote:

but there are also  F11 doubles to F22, F44? F88?  and halved to F5.6  halved again to 2.7-2.8?
is a 30 second shutter  a full stop

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "A FULL STOP" when you are discussing one number - any number at all.  Pick a number.  It doesn't matter what it is.  Let's say, 17.  Then "a full stop" different from that would be 34 or 8 1/2 seconds.  "A stop" is a relationship between two settings.  It is not an absolute.

(I know this will confuse you, and I say it with full knowledge that it will, so read it once and then ignore it so you can understand the preceding message:  for lenses only there is a mathematical way to determine the f stop of the lens.  It is the diameter of the aperture divided by the focal length.  When discussing lenses only the term "f stop" makes sense by itself.  But when your problem is "exposure" you can't determine that with what you do only to the lens, so the term "f stop" takes on the relative, not absolute, meaning as I have used it above.)

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Peter Flanagan
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Top Re: aperture shutter iso workaround help

Read and understand this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exposure_value

You'll feel much better after you do.