I'm of mixed mind about this.

Certainly working with a good model (which is not quite the same thing as "an experienced model" - it seems to me to be as much talent as experience) is a great benefit and makes the shoot much easier and likely more productive and creative.

That said, ultimately the picture is the responsibility of the photographer, and he should not need a talented or experienced model to get the results he wants.  It may be harder for him - it is harder for him - but it's still his job.  If the model can offload some of that burden, so much the better.

For once I actually don't completely agree with Roger. Getting a good result is the responsibility of everyone involved. Each person has a different role, true, and the amount of creative input will vary for different themes and people, but I damned well expect the model to step up and do whatever it takes to get a good photo.

If we succeed, we succeed as a team. If we fail, we fail as a team.

I'm still learning and sometimes the models are more experienced and talented than I am. Other times that relationship is flipped. But it shouldn't matter- I put 100% of my ability into the effort and expect everyone else to do so as well.

Sadly, some people want to let others pick up the slack. This happens everywhere- how many people in the workforce let someone else earn their paycheck every day?

Back to the topic at hand about posing- I'm a practical person. If the model can pose herself and has good ideas, I let her go and don't spend that much time giving direction. If she needs help, I'll give more direction. I recall from working with Rachel that she was pretty good with ideas and didn't need a lot of coaching. She does, however, need training in how to turn a short-wheelbase scooter around in under 100 yards...

Emeritus wrote:

Ultimately it is the photographer's responsibility, and he has to be able to deal with models who are not skilled.  As an example, new fashion models are routinely hired based on nothing but snapshots - they have no experience (and sometimes no talent) at all.  They are hired solely based on their looks.

The photographers are hired for their ability to work with new models, including these complete newbs who happen to have signed with an agency the same week, and get what they need.  The photographers can't blame the model if it doesn't work . . . it's his job to make it work.

I've been blessed with working with some very skilled models, and I greatly appreciate what they can do. It makes my job infinitely easier.  But it's still my job, regardless of what the model brings to the table.

I agree with Roger regarding "the buck stops here" responsibilities of the photographer, especially if he is shooting content for a client. However, that being said, I'm with Rachel and also strongly disagree with the original statement that she posted about.

It is assumed the model's primary asset that she brings to any shoot is her overall appearance. Toss in a hairstylist, MUA, and perhaps a clothing designer's talents and you're on your way. Now it is time for the model and the photographer to step it up and to create the magic. The BEST shoots resulting in quality images has always been a close collaboration of the model's skills combined with my own in my experience.

Yes, it is my responsibility to come up with usable content at the shoots end or later in post editing BUT, here is the major difference between a great self posing model and an attractive newb who hasn't a clue. In the same time frame I can shoot 1000 images with a good self poser as opposed to maybe 150-200 if I have to direct each and every move the model makes and to also direct what she should be doing with her face and eyes.

It's not to say that you can't or shouldn't get stellar results working with a newb. That IS what the client is paying you both for. It is the photographers ultimate responsibility that this ocurs. But, you will always have far more images to choose from when working with a good self poser.

When I am working with an all star, I explain what we're trying to acomplish. She will nod her head and I'm then scrambling to keep up with her. I may tell her to slow it down, hold, move your arm a bit to here, tilt your head a bit to there, postion your eyes and take the shot. She continues to pose and I will continue to shoot until she moves again where I might have to MICRO direct the pose. Working with a newb I am faced with MACRO directing. It doesn't mean I won't get the shot, but often alot more time is involved. Quite often time is at a premium on any shoot when there are budget constraints, no?

I'm not an All Star shooter IMO. Not when I see the work of my heroes. However, I know that if I take 1000 images, I will have 200 or so that are pretty good. Out of those 200, I will find 20 or so in post editing that are publishable. Out of those 20 there will be 2-3 that are off the charts and the shots of the day. Working with a self poser those stats go up. Working with a non self posing newb those stats go down.

The biggest difference between a great self poser and most newbies is that the newb is so busy concentrating on getting the pose correct, or to my specification that she often forgets that she also has a face with eyes. Great, you got the pose but you have the same facial expression thoughout the entire shoot unless I direct that as well.

The best models I have ever worked with all seem to have this in common. They are all excellent self posers and have combined it with an actress's skill of ALSO using her eyes and face to transmit emotions. You aren't just capturing her appearance. You are also capturing a small essence of who she is as well if it's done right. I'm not saying that a newb can't do this, as the ones with real talent can and do. I'm also not saying that the experienced self posing model can do this either, as I've worked with many experienced models who just can't seem to grasp this concept. What I am saying is that the law of averages has shown me that the experienced self posing model has far more often shown me this ability. That makes my job and my life easier.

Farenell Photography wrote:

Rachel Jay wrote:

Anyway, anyone else have any thoughts on this? 

Do you agree with the guy who says it's solely the photographer's job to pose the model, or do you think it's the model's responsibility?  Or should it be a team effort?  Does it depend on the job, the type of shoot, or who the client is?

I honestly don't think the photographer's quote you quoted is entirely w/o merit.

Its a matter of shooting style. Some people have a super specific idea in their head & want it executed that way. It just sounds like he's one of them.

That may be true, but it doesn't justify insulting everyone who doesn't shoot like him 

It would be so much easier if the model could just read my mind.

But seriously, as a *fairly* new hobbyist, I do rely on the skills of the model and if I have an idea that comes up after seeing what she's capable of, I'll ask her to try it.

I can honestly say without fear of contradiction (cuz I'm the one saying it) without the talented models I've shot with my imagery would totally suck. Not that I'm ever going to set the world ablaze with my imagery, but at least for the most part people can look at it without barfing or trying to put forks in their eyes.

For this I thank the models who know how to pose. I can also say that I don't think that makes me a GWC, but I'll leaving the categorizing to others.

I enjoy being a part of the creative process, including posing. I really do not enjoy shooting if the photographer is over controlling of the posing. Every shoot that has been like that, I did not use any of the photos because they were not flattering. I think it's in everyones best interest to work together. Not one or the other being in charge.

Well, unless you are getting paid, then you do what the client wants 

It's no secret that I tend to work with models multiple times, part of that reason is because we work well together and the more I work with a model, a more they're able to tap into the way I work.

I'm not huge on directing poses.  I tend to tweak them more than anything, but I do occasionally 'set a scene'.  Imagine this, or "act like a child" and from there I offer small advice or tweak poses into something that is better for the photo.  I want to give the model an idea, and let her do her thing.  I mean, that is why I'm shooting with that person, right?  Because I think they can pull off what I'm looking for.

When I was first starting in photography, I shot with a lot more models who needed me to pose everything they did.  Stand where I wanted them to stand, do the exact pose I wanted them to do, and then when I'd get back to my spot to take the shot, they had already moved out of it or lost the 'feel' I was going for.  It was frustrating, I didn't enjoy it.

I still occasionally do that, especially for new girls who want a few shots to start a portfolio.  I'm a bit better at handling it now, probably since I shoot weddings and do quite a bit of 'show and tell' posing during those, but those shoots don't hold the same kind of excitement for me.  I feel stifled, because of instead of being able to take a few candids like I enjoy doing, I have to break up my 'flow' while I'm shooting to try and help the model find hers.

So my thoughts of the guy with the idiotic comment?  Just that, he's an idiot.

This is what a great self poser who also uses her face and eyes can do, as Roger has noted in this post.



The macro managing photographer who made the smug original statement leading to this thread would slow this lady down and get far fewer great shots IMO. As Roger has accurately noted when working with a great self posing model, you just "wind her up and let her go"!

I actually hate being micro-managed.  I threw my first ever temper tanrum on a set last Sunday (and Rick, who has seen me at work A LOT, is probably passed out cold right now) after 9 hours.  We got a LOT of great images, don't get me wrong, but about half of my review images, I'm looking at going- dammit, I needed to be able to do THIS here- because I actually DO know how to move my body, from any angle, to get the exact look we want for the shot.  There's a lot of stuff that I know, for a fact, that I could have been more vocal about and eliminated that 40% waste rate on the images.

For those who like to exactly micro-manage every pose- please, be kind and TELL the model ahead of time.  Send her your key shots and say "these are the poses I want to do, in this wardrobe, etc" so that we can get in, go through them, get our mindset on THOSE poses, and hit them fast and hard.  That way we can get through it and be done.

However, if you have a model who knows her body and angles, let her move, and manage her from THERE.  "Freeze!" is a great word.  Please use it.  And then if you want to do multiple shots in that pose, tell her to hold it until otherwise told to move.  If you have a GOOD self-poser- tell her what you want, generally.  Maybe show her some samples.  And then let her run.  Chances are, you're going to love the results.

Being still fairly new to modelling and the ability of posing naturally, I feel it's the communication that's the main thing!

I remember my first ever shoot where although I had done my homework, posing was difficult for me because I just wasn't getting the feedback to know if what I was doing was right?! After some practice and more photographers, I learnt that you just need to go with the flow and if a pose you get into doesn't feel right to let them know so they can direct me.

When you're a new model with no or only some experience it's hard to judge what it going to look good before you do it, that's why the communication is vital! Not every photographer is good at directing but not every model is good at posing.....it's about practice and being on the same wavelength as each other to get the best results for both parties involved!
I mostly always ask what the photographer prefers whether to direct or expects me to pose  - we usually end up 'going with the flow' and then communicating to make sure i'm doing it right!